'Our Culture Is Better'

[pubjohn47]

Jim, you've inspired me; I'll be sure to tell members of every Christian & Catholic church within my reach that they oughtta be ashamed of themselves for all the charity work and other help for the downtrodden they perform year after year.

JeffD, not even close to the point. I am an atheist. I am a member of my local Unitarian-Universalist church. I (and my fellow congregants) contribute a significant amount of our income to "charity work & help for the downtrodden". That contribution and commitment has been one of the most defining aspects of the U-U church.

Jim Rutledge

Thanks for the charity and thank Unitarians for the work they do.

The world needs generous Americans like yourself to counter the bad name the US government gets around the world because of US foreign policy that caters to the profit agenda of the military/industrial complex

[Jeffreydan]

Jim, you've inspired me; I'll be sure to tell members of every Christian & Catholic church within my reach that they oughtta be ashamed of themselves for all the charity work and other help for the downtrodden they perform year after year.

JeffD, not even close to the point. I am an atheist. I am a member of my local Unitarian-Universalist church. I (and my fellow congregants) contribute a significant amount of our income to "charity work & help for the downtrodden". That contribution and commitment has been one of the most defining aspects of the U-U church.

Jim Rutledge

"Fundamentally evil" is a pretty serious barb to toss, Jim; that's why I responded the way I did. I don't think Christianity and faiths based on it are without flaws or scars, but I can't see making the leap to "fundamentally evil." Knowing what the majority of Christians and their faith stand for, it comes off as ridiculous.

Characterizing Nazism that way I could buy. Islamofascism as well. Communism perhaps. The concept of genocide. White supremacy (or any bigotry for that matter). See where I'm going?

[Cap'n Billy]

Yes that is precisely what I am imagining. They are both fundamentally evil. Maybe one more evil than the other, but both fundamentally evil.

Yup, Rutledge has stumbled upon the truth, all right. Christianity and Islam are both fundamentally evil in his imagination.

[TerryAnne]

PJ...do you know ANYTHING about real Islam? As in...the Koran is totally up for grabs in interpretation?!? Who cares what it says...your mullah tells you what it really says anyway.

So, let us change the context:

TA . . . . do you know ANYTHING about real Christianity? As in . . . the New Testament is totally up for grabs in interpretation?!?
Who cares what it says . . . your priest, reverend, minister, tells you what it really says anyway.

Jim Rutledge

WTF?!? Are you even a Christian? Oh, wait, let me guess...you disowned all religion as a teen in the 60s as a way of fighting against your parents...and have yet to grow up.

Yes, there are various 'interpretations' of the Bible (I use quotes here, becuase you are obviously using the definition of that word very loosely). However, we on the more enlightened side of religion (i.e. non-Muslims) have divided them into legitimate categories of Protestant (i.e. Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) and Catholic. All men and women who will be leading a church in either Protestant or Catholic churches MUST attend a school; for us Baptists, we call it Seminary.

Muslims....nope. Anyone can call themselves or be 'promoted' to Mullah status. Asshat Osama is considered a Mullah by some of his devout followers.

Christians all believe the same basic tenants, although Catholics' reverence of the Virgin Mary and Saints doesn't translate as strongly to the Protestant side. We, unlike the Muslims, don't fight over who should be the next grand poobah, or who/who not to kill, or how women should dress, or how long your beard has to be, etc.

I have yet to go to a church that tells me something outlandishly different than what I have learned in previous churches. Yes, I have moved from being a more centrist Baptist to being a Southern Baptist, and, yes, the SBs take the Bible more literally than what I'm previously used to....however, they don't go around saying that, "Well, when God said 'Honor thy Father and Mother', he meant that you should only say something nice on their gravestone". The principal fundmentals are the same throughout.

[pubjohn47]

"Fundamentally evil" is a pretty serious barb to toss, ?

I believe Jim is not talking about Mother Theresa who was a peacemaker and did much to improve the condition of the poor

I believe Jim is talking about those who use christianity for their own selfish political purposes, as the Spanish and the Portuguese did when they divided up the world amongst themselves to conquer it and plunder it, all in the name of "christianity" (The Treaty of Tordesillas )

[MrSinatra]

Jim, you've inspired me; I'll be sure to tell members of every Christian & Catholic church within my reach that they oughtta be ashamed of themselves for all the charity work and other help for the downtrodden they perform year after year.

JeffD, not even close to the point. I am an atheist. I am a member of my local Unitarian-Universalist church. I (and my fellow congregants) contribute a significant amount of our income to "charity work & help for the downtrodden". That contribution and commitment has been one of the most defining aspects of the U-U church.

Jim Rutledge

does this church have any sacraments? i find it amusing you can't find an atheist outlet for your good works.

maybe i'll start going to atheist meetings here to spread the good word.

[Ruds]

Hello Mr. Sinatra, Where ya been?

[MrSinatra]

busy with work, good to see you back tho.

i'm actually working on something top secret with Bernie, but stay tuned, announcements soon.

[Jeffreydan]

"Fundamentally evil" is a pretty serious barb to toss, ?

I believe Jim is not talking about Mother Theresa who was a peacemaker and did much to improve the condition of the poor

I believe Jim is talking about those who use christianity for their own selfish political purposes

Example #4,924 of your inability to pay attention to what others write.

He said Christianity was fundamentally evil. Look up "fundamentally" and then see if you have it in you to comprehend what he wrote.

And don't bother trying to attach any of your anti-war soapboxing to this subject when addressing me. It will (very rightly) be ignored as usual.

[pubjohn47]

"Fundamentally evil" is a pretty serious barb to toss, ?

I believe Jim is not talking about Mother Theresa who was a peacemaker and did much to improve the condition of the poor

I believe Jim is talking about those who use christianity for their own selfish political purposes

Example #4,924 of your inability to pay attention to what others write.

He said Christianity was fundamentally evil. Look up "fundamentally" and then see if you have it in you to comprehend what he wrote.

And don't bother trying to attach any of your anti-war soapboxing to this subject when addressing me. It will (very rightly) be ignored as usual.

Jim's interpretation of the word fundamentally evil is different from your interpretation of the word fundamental.

Here is the dictionary definition of fundamental :

1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.
2. of, pertaining to, or affecting the foundation or basis: a fundamental revision.
3. being an original or primary source: a fundamental idea


You are using the definition of 1 and 3 above but Jim is using the definition in 2 and that is a fundamental revision of what Christ taught

Ask Jim what he meant by fundamentally evil and I am sure he is going to point not to Mother Theresa's fundamental interpretation of christianity but rather Jim is going to point out to the fundamental interpretation or fundamental revision of christianity of those who use christianity for political or evil purposes

[Jim Rutledge]

does this church have any sacraments?

No. Why would we have something as arcane as sacraments? Unitarian-Universalism is non-creedal, like the Congregationalists(from whom the Unitarians split in the 19th century) & maybe the Disciples of Christ or the Church of Christ.

i find it amusing you can't find an atheist outlet for your good works.

You missed the whole point, I have found an outlet for good works. Most (but certainly not all) Unitarians are atheists, or at least humanists, agnostics or universalists, but we continue to do good works, or at least aspire to do good works. I appreciate your concern, and welcome any other outlets you might suggest.

Jim Rutledge

[Jeffreydan]

Here is the dictionary definition of fundamental :

1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.
2. of, pertaining to, or affecting the foundation or basis: a fundamental revision.
3. being an original or primary source: a fundamental idea


You are using the definition of 1 and 3 above but Jim is using the definition in 2 and that is a fundamental revision of what Christ taught

Wrong. You cannot correctly and directly translate the word "fundamental" (an adjective), to "a fundamental revision" (a noun). Your definition #2, spelled out, is elaborated thus: of the basis of Christianity, pertaining to the basis of Christianity, or affecting the basis of Christianity
Jim was calling Christianity, at its basis, evil.

Now for you, definitions of the word from American Heritage's 4th edition dictionary:
1. Basic; elementary
2. Of central importance; essential
3. Involving all aspects; radical

So Jim was calling it either 1) basically evil; 2) essentially evil; or 3) radically evil/in all aspects evil.

I recognize there has been evil done by Christians, often in their view done so per their religion. But that is of a purely fringe minority, not the basis, something fundamental of Christianity.

[TerryAnne]

The funny thing here, which I overlooked, is that Jim calls himself an atheist, but follows Unitarianism....which is basically a religion of all religions. They acknowledge all gods as equal, but do not pay respects to a particular god. Atheists, on the other hand, claim that there is no god. Therefore, Jim, you are actually agnostic.

[Jeffreydan]

The funny thing here, which I overlooked, is that Jim calls himself an atheist, but follows Unitarianism....which is basically a religion of all religions. They acknowledge all gods as equal, but do not pay respects to a particular god. Atheists, on the other hand, claim that there is no god. Therefore, Jim, you are actually agnostic.

What? I certainly didn't picture Jim as an M.D. specializing in troubleshooting rare painful illnesses.

[pubjohn47]

Jim was calling Christianity, at its basis, evil.

Jim was not calling christianity evil, Jim was calling some christians fundamentally evil, just as Jesus called some jews fundamentally evil.

I have never heard Jim say that Christ was fundamentally evil;


he was talking about some christians who are fundamentally evil because they have a fundamental revision of christianity