Moderate Muslims

[CWNelson79]

I don't think they exist. Like bigfoot or the lockness monster. You hear about them, and some even claim to have seen them, but they are no where to be found.

Besides, The religion of Islam is based on terrorism. The Koran tells them to be terrorists. This is not news. Muslims have always been terrorists through out history. Starting back with Ishmael to the present. God chose the jews as his chosen people and Ishmael was the other kid, the red headed step child. And muslims to this day are still fighting God's chosen people. If you want to know where anti semetic behavior comes from then look no further than the devil and his hate of God.

The muslims, who by the way their false god allah started as some moon god. They will stop at nothing to kill off christians and jews. Like all the other pagans the Israelites had to deal with. Except these guys are still around. The palestinian people who are not even a real people, they have no claim to Israel, none whatsoever. Israel has always been and will always be the Jewish people's land. Anything else if garbage, and the arabs need to back off. They won't tho, thats for sure. They can't, their false god won't let them.

I would have to say also, the difference between the whites in the old south,and the muslims you got going now. The whites were not following some radical false religion. The whites were not doing what they did because Allah told them to. You can't ever change the muslim attitude without getting rid of islam altogether. The ones who don't terrorize or support the terrorist are actually the muslims who don't follow their religion like it was set out to be followed. The terrorists are the true muslims, and are doing what their religion and their book tell them to do.

In the end, the truth sets you free. Instead of garbage about Christians and jews worshiping the same god as the muslims. And people told blatant false hoods about it being a religion of peace. People need to know what they are dealing with and come to terms with this reality of islam. The whole can't we all get along apporach will not work.

[steve1633]

Once again, spoken like a man who has not even looked into the situation. To start with Al-Lah is the arabic word for elohim, which is the hebrew word for most high lord, god, creator of all beings. Allah is not a different god, it is a different word.
Also, yahweh, the god of the israelites, was originally one of a number of gods worshiped in the area of ancient israel. Each nation had a god that they believed liked them best and thus brought them their good fortune in they were faithful and punished them with bad times if they were not. Ba'al was the most immediate neighbor of yahweh and was often the deity that israelites would turn to in desperate times when their faith was shaken. At some point the israelites decided that their god was not just the best god but was in fact THE god, and so began judaism and western monotheism.
And lastly, you're an idiot or a racist if you truly believe there are no moderate muslims. Take a drive through dearborn michigan and tell me if they are having problems with terrorist attacks? I went to a talk given by a muslim about islamic mysticism two weeks ago he had no harsh words for us infidels, in fact he fielded a lot of skeptical questions with respect and confidence. I just hope you're a joke of sorts because if it's not meant to be funny it is deeply disturbing.

[WeaponOfMassInstruction]

I am not a Biblical expert nor have I ever claimed to be.

That said, is it not fair to at least entertain the possibility that passages in the Qu'ran that command Muslims to commit violence- or at least those passages where an argument can be made that they appear to entreat violence- might be the same sort of parables that Christians find in the Bible?

Obviously, Christians have, in comparatively small numbers, used the words in the Bible to justify via the Word of God all sorts of the most heinous acts. This was particularly true in the Old Testament. If Christians misunderstood God's message in those instances, it is impossible that Muslims- some, not all- have misunderstood Allah's words in much the same way?

I've often said that what's missing in Islam is a 'New Testament' version of the Qu'ran.

[CWNelson79]

Steve i am not going by the name of the false moon god allah that the muslims worship when i say their god is not the christian or jewish God. I am saying they are different because of who they are. Any moron reading the koran and then reading the bible can see the difference. It does not take a heavy study to see this. Just like jews call jesus yeshua his hebrew name. Its not even really the name that has anything to do with it. Its the fact that their false god which they call allah is not the christian or jewish one.

Although the two religions share some terminology and even some theology (monotheism, for instance), Islam is fundamentally different from Christianity. Islam is a works-oriented religion, while Christian faith is based on salvation by grace through faith as a result of the shed blood of Christ. In Islam, if God wants to forgive sin, He simply says, "It is forgiven." Christianity recognizes the necessity of the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sin.

They deny Jesus as son of God and lord and savior, and put forth the maniac and child molester mohammed as Allah's prophet. Muslims in no way worhsip the one and True God of the bible. Islam is a modern version of the ancient fertility religion of the moon god. Once this is grasped, the rise and history of Islam becomes clear.

Who were these Arabs? They obviously were not Christians because they destroyed churches and murdered priests wherever they went. Obviously, they were not Jews because they persecuted Jews without pity. This is seen today in their hatred of Israel and the many wars and acts of terrorism waged against Jews throughout the world.

If the Arab hordes which swept over the ancient world were not Christians or Jews, then what were they? They were pagans who worshipped a pagan god called Allah and followed pagan rites which were practiced in Arabia long before the religion of Islam evolved.

Islam's origins have been traced back by scholars to the ancient fertility religion of the worship of the moon god which was always the dominant religion of Arabia. The moon god was worshipped by praying toward Mecca several times a day, making an annual pilgrimage to the Kabah which was a temple of the moon god, running around the Kabah seven times, caressing an idol of a black stone set in the wall of the Kabah, running between two hills, making animal sacrifices, gathering on Fridays for prayers, giving alms to the poor, etc.. These were pagan rites practiced by the Arabs long before Muhammad was born.

This explains why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. It is placed on top of mosques and minarets and displayed on hats, flags, rugs, amulets and even jewelry. Every time you see the Muslim symbol of a crescent moon, you are seeing the ancient symbol of the moon god.

Now as far as yaweh, he has always been and always will be the one true God of israel. If some of the Israelites ever turned to a false pagan idol like Baal, they were doing so away from the will of God. Again you can see the obvious difference between the idol baal and the true God yaweh. Baal was just one of many false pagan gods people turned too when they ignored God. To compare them is silly.

And no its not a joke. There are no moderate muslims. This is a PC ploy to get people to look at muslims in a positive light. You have 2 types of muslims, the ones who do the terrorism, and the ones who either openly or secretivly support it. And if you have any outside of this, its like the homosexuals, being maybe 1 percent. Islam should in no way what so ever be supported in this country. Muslims can be muslims because of freedom of speech and religion. But if they want to change the country into some saudi arabian, or iranian sharia ran land then its a no go.

Islam reminds me much of the communist of old in the 50's. It secretivly entered the government and libs loved it ofcourse. McCarthy went after it and was villified. Sorry, i have no love for the evil religion of islam.

[Jim Rutledge]

I am not a Biblical expert nor have I ever claimed to be.

That said, is it not fair to at least entertain the possibility that passages in the Qu'ran that command Muslims to commit violence- or at least those passages where an argument can be made that they appear to entreat violence- might be the same sort of parables that Christians find in the Bible?

Obviously, Christians have, in comparatively small numbers, used the words in the Bible to justify via the Word of God all sorts of the most heinous acts. This was particularly true in the Old Testament. If Christians misunderstood God's message in those instances, it is impossible that Muslims- some, not all- have misunderstood Allah's words in much the same way?

I've often said that what's missing in Islam is a 'New Testament' version of the Qu'ran.

Weaps, we have seldom agreed on issues on this forum. I believe your above post is most correct and insightful.

Jim Rutledge

[steve1633]

cw
i retract my previous post. I hope that god shines all of his miserable wrath on you. You are a false believer in the god of US versus the god of them when all true christians know that we are all, as jesus taught, children of god and thus of the same family.

IF you want to make up your own history that is fine. But let me treat with a few facts. First Muhammad's first desire, before the quran was revealed to him, was to bring monotheism to his polytheistic tribesmen, and that the God he sought to bring was the god of Abraham. Al-Lah is just the arabic word for "the most high", the fact that you won't even recognize that is the best evidence that you are simply choosing to be racist against arabs as a life choice based on fear as opposed to a choice based on evidence.

Sincerely brother, I pray that the loving spirit of jesus will find your soul before you are fully consumed into a new life of fear and damnation brought on by hatred.[/u][/list]

[CWNelson79]

Steve, thanks for the wonderful blessing, i am not suprised to get it from someone who supports the false and evil religion of islam.

But Beyond that, we are not all children of God. One must be Born again to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Anyone who rejects Jesus as lord and savior will infact end up in hell sorry to say. We cannot serve two masters, you are either for God and his salvation through Christ or against him.

Muhammad the child molester was most likely contacted by a demon. Fed false anti biblical beliefs and thus we have terrorism. Allah may be the arabic name for God, but it sure isn't the God of the bible.

I am not racist against arabs, just against the false religion of islam no matter who does it.

And when you say You hope jesus find's my soul, are you talking about the son of God and savior jesus? Or the perverted version in islam, the prophet jesus? You might want to look for him yourself and become born again.

[Topher]

There are different interpretations of the Qu'ran, just as there are different interpretations of the Bible. I've had Islamic friends from Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, and the U.S. who all universally loathed what was being done in the name of their religion, just as many Baptists here hate what Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church do in the name of theirs.

I'll pass on being born again--I'm pretty sure I got it right the first time. If the only people in Heaven are those who are willing to turn over their minds souls to Jesus while badgering the rest of us relentlessly about our failure to do the same, I'd rather be in Hell.

Topher

[CWNelson79]

Different interpretations of the koran? Really? Then interpret these for me.

Sura 9:5 says, Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.

Muhammad wrote in the Sura 4:3 that it is unlawful to have more than four wives, but he had more than four. Muslim scholar Ali Dashti lists 22 women in Muhammad's life, including 16 wives. He also stole his adopted son's wife Zaynab and made her his own. One wife, Aesha, was only eight or nine years old when he took her to bed.

Sura 4:34: Men are the managers of the affairs of women...Those you fear may be rebellious--admonish; banish them to their couches and beat them.

Allah's apostle was asked, 'What is the best deed?' He replied, 'To believe in Allah and his Apostle.' The questioner then asked, 'What is the next (in goodness)?' He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause.'" – The Hadith, Al Bukhari, Vol. 1 no 25.

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is one of them . . ." Surah 5:54.


Christians and Jews may be spared if they pay "Jizya" – a penalty tax – with willing submission: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day . . . Nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay Jizya (tribute taxes) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" Surah 9:29.


"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of the hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land . . ." Surah 5:36.


"Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Hadith Vol. 9:57.

"No Muslim should be killed for killing a kafir (infidel)." Hadith Vol 9:50

"The person who participates in Jihad (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (if he is killed)." Hadith Vol 1:35

Muhammad also burned out eyes with hot irons (Hadith vol. 1, no. 234) and deprived people of water until they died (vol. 8, no. 796).

just a few fun examples.



Now as for using the baptist and westboro baptist church example. The difference is, the islamic teachings are in line with terrorism. The Westboro church is not in line with baptist teachings. And its only one small church. Unlike Islam, its not even to be considered in comparison, plus they are non violent in their activities. Its a silly comparison.


You can pass on anything topher, God does not force salvation on anyone. But please, when you die, do not blame God or any christian who tried to help you receive salvation and avoid hell. And trust me, you may be being sarcastic about hell, but you do not want to be there.

[Topher]

I'll give you a few from your precious Bible (and I'll even handicap myself by sticking to the New Testament):

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Yeah, that makes me want to embrace him.)

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(By the way, since Revelations says that only 144,000 will be saved, shouldn't you stop recruiting?)

And of course I was being sarcastic about Hell: I don't believe it exists, so I won't be going there or anywhere else. And since I'll be dead, I won't be able to blame anyone for anything.

Topher

[CWNelson79]

Matthew 10:34, For one thing, it is clear that "sword" here is a figurative reference to personal division, not to literal weaponry. Skeptics may reply that it doesn't matter, for any cause of division or strife is in opposition to Jesus' supposed pacificism, and as one critic puts it, Jesus "has seeded extreme division, sedition and enmity wherever Christianity is promulgated" by "exhorting his followers to violence." Perhaps the critics need to look at the verses previous to these to see just who it is Jesus is saying will be prone to violence:

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 10:16-33)
Far from advocating violence, Jesus is here predicting that Christians will become the victims of violence: It is the persecutors who wield the sword and become the foes. In other words, Jesus is saying here what we have: Religion will become an excuse for inhumanity. The critics have the sentiments precisely backwards.


Hebrews 10:31, This is talking about rebellious people.


Luke 19:27, luke 19:11-27 is a parable.


Revelation when talking about the 144,000 in verses REV 7:1-8, These are newly converted Jewish evangelists who will pick up where the Church leaves off after the rapture. It'll be their job to bring the Gospel to the world during Daniel's 70th Week. Had they been believers before the rapture, they'd have disappeared with the Church. If the church was still here, there'd be no need for them. But the Church is in Heaven (Rev. 5), Daniel's 70th Week has begun (Rev. 6) and the Lord needs someone on Earth to tell His story for Him. (Matt. 24:14).

Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. Rev 7:1-4

Revelation 7:5-8 goes on to describe this group as coming from among the Jewish people, with 12,000 from each of 12 named tribes.


the other group: Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
As you can see, the group identified in Rev 14:1-5 is substantially different from the one in Rev. 7. This group is standing on Mt. Zion and they have the names of both the Father and the Son written on their foreheads. They are described as having been redeemed from the earth and are before the Throne of God singing a new song, a song only they can sing. They are pure and blameless, they've been purchased from among men, and are offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.

The similarity is unmistakable. Their location (heaven), their spiritual state (pure and blameless), the fact that they've been purchased from among men and follow the Lord wherever He goes tells us who they are. Though some mistakenly identify them as the original 144,000, martyred and in heaven, only one group fits that description perfectly ... the Church.

This 144,000 is a sampling of the redeemed, brought to heaven in the rapture and presented as the first fruits of God's great harvest of souls, just as the wave offering was the first fruits of the harvest of grain (Lev. 23:9-14). All the grain was harvested, but only a sample was presented. So it is with the Church. The 144,000 is not meant to be the full number of raptured believers, just a sample.

[Topher]

Thanks for the copy and paste from tektonics.org.

Any thoughts of your own?

Topher

[CWNelson79]

if you already knew the answer why ask?

The only thing i got from tektonics was about matthew.

[steve1633]

It's just funny that you will sit all day and parse the language of the bible finding different interpretations of the language that makes it ok and not violent but you immediately jump on one translation of the qu'ran and insist that it is both a correct translation and a literal statement. Your s bomb weak CW and you and christians like you are the most dangerous virus in our nation.

[CWNelson79]

Whats funny steve is that if those verses in the koran were wrong then you surely could tell me. I know you are a christian hating loon, but don't blame me because Islam is a religion of terrorists. The bible is very accurate.