What's right is right

[jaybear_us]

Y'know, you can cite the capitalistic system, the right of people to make as much money as they can, individual rights, non-government interference, and so on and so forth to rationalize and justify any point of view, but what's right is right and no amount of justification will turn something that's wrong into what's right.

I'm talking about the economic situation in this country, of course. Now, I admit, I might be looking at this from a skewed point of view, since I was recently permanently laid off for no cause, since I was one of the higher paid workers in my plant, but still.......

On the one hand, we have Bill Gates, who, if he never made another dime from today on, his descendants for the next five generations probably won't be able to spend all his money. We also have Lee Raymond's retirement package of $350,000,000 from Exon Mobil. Also, there's Bob Simpson of XTO Energy, who pocketed $44,000,000 salary and bonuses in 2004. Not to mention all the pro athletes who make millions every year, the CEO's we never hear about making millions and getting golden parachutes upon retirement and I don't think I need to go on.

On the other hand, according to latest estimates from republican, democrat and independent sources, 40% of Americans can't afford health care, millions more live from week to week, people are getting their jobs cut out from under them, every year sees a new record for personal bankruptcies, and again, so on and so on.

I see how the government crows about all the new jobs created and all the economic growth, but I believe it's a 'big lie'. What good is a new job when the old one paid $50,000 and the new one pays $30,000? Suddenly, your mortgage becomes unaffordable, you don't want to buy new clothes, the price of gas to get to work is eating up a good part of your check, you gotta hope nobody in the house gets sick, and any major expense can ruin you.

Now, that's not true for me, if anyone is wondering, but I know personally that it is happening to a lot of people, and I'm sure it's happening to god knows how many people I don't know.

My point is that there is a major economic imbalance in this country and it's getting worse every year. It's almost funny that I hear from all the people who have, all the aforementioned rationalizations and justifications. I'm sure they can logically debate the issue and prove without doubt that nothings wrong with the situation. I guess it's only natural today, to protect what you have and screw everyone else.

But I can't see how anyone; can look around and not see that we have a major problem that needs to be addressed. I'm not saying that we're going to have a revolution or anything like that, but I will say that as more and more people start getting desperate and have less and less to lose, there will be consequences, social and economic, and we may not like the outcome.

[beaburt]

I guess what you want is a Socialist country which the USA is right now! You don't have to earn a dime the government has a multiplicity of assistance programs for unemployment, healthcare etc that you helped pay for all the years that you paid taxes, both federal and state.

The wealth Gap is at all time highs right now, you have to ask yourself if you would rather live in a country where amassing a fortune like Bill Gates is impossible or in a society where the government controls everything....kind of Orwellian!

[Sherry]

there has to be some middle ground on this.............and when I come up with a solution............I'll post it here........

hmmmmm....let me adjust my thinking cap......hmmmmmm

[jaybear_us]

One doesn't have to take any solutions to extremes, beaburt, as you seem to be implying. A socialist country? No, that's not what I want, but I don't see how you can deny that there are some very serious imbalances in our society.

My point is that in any system, capitalism included, if there are no controls or moderation, the system can be used to exploit and damage the society as a whole. Not to mention that any system taken to extremes can lead to abuse and the creation of a virtual economic slave class. In fact, that is going on right now with the illegal immigrants earning below minimum wage and being kept in that virtual economic slavery.

I'm saying that to a lesser extent, that situation applies to a good portion of Americans now and that the situation is getting worse. Anyone who can't see that has their eyes closed.

I don't know what the solution is right now, but at least I can see that there is a problem, and that is the first step to addressing it.

[MrSinatra]

ridiculous.

in this country, one is free to make whatever they can, based on fulfilling the needs of others, (a good or service) and it can only be done profitably when done so better or cheaper than the competition.

gates is a shining example and innovator, and thank god this country still leads in that field.

exxon has been VERY good to shareholders, and i don't see any shortages out there.

it is NOT the gov'ts job to redistribute wealth. wealth finds those deserving of it. and even if u inherit it or win the lottery, unless u stick it under a mattress, your wealth is the capital investment which drives the economic engine of ths country, one growing at a rate which is the envy of the world. (china is bogus, they artificially control their currency).

u say its so awful... well where else is better? no where, period. and if u say u simply want it to better, i ask you, how? by incresing the already insane tax burden?

sure, there's lots that we COULD do... but what SHOULD we do? i would argue that the less the gov't is involved, the better. here's my suggestion:

a flat 10% income tax on any and all earnings of any type, combined with a "fair tax" or fed sales tax. this would have to be combined w/a balanced budget amendment.

if you converted all money to "electronic form only" you not only solve the drug crisis, (dealers couldn't deal long with a paper trail) but you could exempt low income earners from the fed sales tax in the form of a yearly rebate.

also, federal funding of personal health savings account for children, to be stopped when they turn 18, and to not be started again until they are 70.

i'd also like to see the privitization of social security.

if we did that above, it would solve a LOT of problems in this country, and it would not require any bogus tax the rich, punish the productive members of society approach. it would treat all equally.

[jaybear_us]

So you're saying the poor should stay poor and all the millions of Americans who are having a tougher time of it year after year should keep having a tough time of it and tough titties to all of them. At least, that's how I interpret your post.

It may be, in fact, a redistribution of income I'm calling for, but not by taxation, though the tax laws do need to be redone. What I am saying, is that any system, capitalism included, needs controls, and it looks to me as if the controls we do have, have been put in place by those at the top of the economic pyramid to unduly benefit them.

Such as, why is it allowed to avoid personal and corporate taxation by the use of off-shore accounts? I've seen estimated that corporations, collectively, are avoiding up to $70 billion, I repeat, billion dollars a year in taxes. Or why are people who receive, to pick a number, $100,000 a year in retirement income allowed to receive social security? Why is it that people who can afford high interest rates get low ones and the people who need low interest rates get charged the most? And my favorite one, the usury which goes by the term "compound interest". The bank or mortgage company tells you you're paying five or six percent interest. But when you have to pay back $300,000 on a $100,000 loan, well gosh, that sure sounds like 300% interest to me.

Like I said, you can rationalize and justify anything, but that still doesn't make something right or moral or ethical.

[TerryAnne]

The problem with this solution, jaybear, is that it becomes kind-of Communist, where everyone works for the "betterment" of the society in general (although we know that that does not work)....heck, we could even say Fascist, as what you are promoting would try to obliterate class structure. I'll agree that in our current system, where the rich keep getting (obscenely) richer and the poor poorer...especially when you think that people who play sports or smile for cameras make roughly 400 times more than the average person who actually works for a living....is a mite flawed, yet, there is little that we can do about it.

[MrSinatra]

So you're saying the poor should stay poor and all the millions of Americans who are having a tougher time of it year after year should keep having a tough time of it and tough titties to all of them. At least, that's how I interpret your post.

funny, i wasn't aware that in America we had a hierarchial system. i thought we had social / class mobility... wait, i'm right, we do!

what are you suggesting? that people have a right to not be poor? that the gov't has an obligation to make them not be poor?

i could point to literally INFINITE examples of people born poor who are now rich, and vice versa! and america is one of the few countries where it is EASY to switch from one class to another.

RIGHT NOW anyone who has a will can find a way to improve their status. thats the fact. would u rather we were like France, and the gov't makes it illegal to fire people? where the unemployed get paid off the backs of the employed? where they RIOT over these issues?

our system rewards those with talents and or determination, and the more talented and determined you are, the more rare your abilitites are, the more you are in demand and rewarded. what other system is better? more fair? more efficient?

and by the way, year after year the quality of life for the poor in this country, keeps getting higher and higher. how many other countries poor have DVDs?

It may be, in fact, a redistribution of income I'm calling for, but not by taxation, though the tax laws do need to be redone. What I am saying, is that any system, capitalism included, needs controls, and it looks to me as if the controls we do have, have been put in place by those at the top of the economic pyramid to unduly benefit them.

you need to give me an example, b/c i have no idea what you're talking about.

Such as, why is it allowed to avoid personal and corporate taxation by the use of off-shore accounts? I've seen estimated that corporations, collectively, are avoiding up to $70 billion, I repeat, billion dollars a year in taxes.

its a complex issue, b/c depending on what you do, you will force people to b/c citizens or companies OF other countries. our tax laws should be competitive with the world, and so our rates should beat any island state.

but its not as if we have the power to tell other states or individuals or coompanies that they can't base themselves outside of the country.

however, there are rememdies, and i'd like to see the tax code totally simplified, to one where no loopholes exist, b/c there is only one single rule: 10% of all earnings of any income... and if we need more, we use an adjustable national fed sales tax rate.

Or why are people who receive, to pick a number, $100,000 a year in retirement income allowed to receive social security?

talk to the dems, they killed Bush's plan to means test it, b/c they want EVERYONE to be a part of it. they think this makes it a "stronger" gov't program b/c they feel that keeps it from getting eroding public support.

means testing is, imo, ABSOLUTELY necessary, and i'm all for it.

Why is it that people who can afford high interest rates get low ones and the people who need low interest rates get charged the most?

risk. plain and simple. risk.

loan money to someone, and you'll get it.

And my favorite one, the usury which goes by the term "compound interest". The bank or mortgage company tells you you're paying five or six percent interest. But when you have to pay back $300,000 on a $100,000 loan, well gosh, that sure sounds like 300% interest to me.

over how much time?

my mortgage is 30 years locked at 5% even. when i'm done, it'll be nearly twice what i borrowed.

but its over 30 years, isn't it? and i get to use it now, whereas they will suffer inflation, which could be anywhere from 2-7% over the next 30 years, (if we're lucky).

on top of that, they assume the risk for 30 years. and lets not forget that more than likely, even a bad property will appreciate in value.

in truth, i basically got "free money" when these factors are considered. i'm not paying back much more then the principal if these factors are taken into account.

Like I said, you can rationalize and justify anything, but that still doesn't make something right or moral or ethical.

our system is more right, or moral, or ethical, then ANY other system in play today. people are rewarded, or punished, based on the merits they offer. it may not be perfect of course, but its the best ballgame in town.

[clynt]

our system is more right, or moral, or ethical, then ANY other system in play today. people are rewarded, or punished, based on the merits they offer. it may not be perfect of course, but its the best ballgame in town.

The above is a pure certainty, however, it is still inherently flawed so that says a lot about our neighbors.

[RebelSnake]

So you're saying the poor should stay poor and all the millions of Americans who are having a tougher time of it year after year should keep having a tough time of it and tough titties to all of them.

The reason the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor is the rich keep on doing the things that got them rich and the poor keep doing the things that keep them poor. Bottom line, if you want to change your circumstances, you have to change the way you do things.

[clynt]

So you're saying the poor should stay poor and all the millions of Americans who are having a tougher time of it year after year should keep having a tough time of it and tough titties to all of them.

The reason the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor is the rich keep on doing the things that got them rich and the poor keep doing the things that keep them poor. Bottom line, if you want to change your circumstances, you have to change the way you do things.

That logic is impossible to dispute.

[MrSinatra]

i think some people don't understand that it is VERY unique in the world to have a country like ours, where there is TRUE opportunity to change your circumstances for good or ill.

in many other societies today, and even in some others very recently (like england) there is NOTHING you can do, NO opportunity to make such a change.

if you were born a peasent, you'd die a peasent. born an aristocrat, die as one. thats it, end of story. and there is no chance to change that.

america is great b/c it values citizens as equals, and it divides class and religion from government. we were the first to do so, and the best to do so.