Christians vs. atheists

[Topher]

I'd like to see a study comparable to the Hoover charity study on atheist vs. religious political and social activities. Which group recycles more, which places higher priorities on which fiscal and social issues, which group better prepares for their children's educations and their own retirements (so as to not be a burden on society), etc.? Rather than focusing on the source of their morality, I'd like to see the results. I know there are hedonistic atheists who don't care about anything but themselves and I know there are religious zealots who believe worrying about the Earth is pointless since Armageddon is coming soon, but both groups are fanatics who don't represent the core of either group.

Perhaps we can take this discussion to a new thread. With that being said, what do you think would be gained from this knowledge in either group being on the more positive side of the scale?

Phinehas and I thread-jacked the Creation vs. Evolution thread on this point.

My goal with the study wouldn't be to simply see which group is better or worse in certain areas, and the definitions of "better" and "worse" would be subject to debate on issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc. What I really want, and expect, to see and show is that mainstream Christians and atheists really aren't all that different. I'm sure that Christians will tend more conservative and Republican and atheists will be more liberal and Democratic (Note: I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, so I don't vote for either major party), but I'm guessing that when it comes to taking care of things at home the groups are pretty similar.

Topher

[WeaponOfMassInstruction]

First, welcome back Topher- you've been missed.

I think I would wholeheartedly agree that I'd love to see such a study done, and I further agree that chances are pretty good that you won't see a massive gulf in a fair number of areas between the two groups. Most Christians and Atheists don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just try to live their lives to the best of their abilities. I'd argue that it is the spokesmen, usually self-appointed, for both groups that tend to polarize, or at least attempt to polarize, both groups. In that, Pat Robertson and Richard Dawkins are equally guilty.

[Phinehas]

uhh, crap. I wrote a post and lost it. Anyway, perhaps the thread title should be "Christians and atheists"? I'll salvage this one thought. There are atheists that say that they are simply people with a lack of belief. While I can understand that, I just don't think it can be retained after some point in childhood. To me, a purely neutral mindset is like a child prior to recognizing their own existence, when they don't simply just accept being but prior to even that. Once contemplation occurs, that innocence is gone, never to return. So I think my view is clear, what do others think, can a cognizant person really have an absence of belief?

[WeaponOfMassInstruction]

phin-

I suspect you already know how I'll answer this....but it won't stop me from posting it anyway.

Since I believe that Atheism is in itself a belief system, then no I do not believe that any cognizant person can hold to a complete absence of belief.

In my opinion, all Secular Humanism does is elevate the individual to his or her own 'god-hood', and that, to me, constitutes a "belief". There is still an ultimate arbeiter of right and wrong but that is the mortal human rather than the immortal God.

[Jrutledge]

uhh, crap. I wrote a post and lost it. Anyway, perhaps the thread title should be "Christians and atheists"? I'll salvage this one thought. There are atheists that say that they are simply people with a lack of belief. While I can understand that, I just don't think it can be retained after some point in childhood.

That's funny, because I can't imagine anyone retaining their belief in a personal god after childhood. At some point most of us realize that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, the Sun God & the Rain God are myths; useful & significant myths, but myths just the same.

So I think my view is clear, what do others think, can a cognizant person really have an absence of belief?

In a very general sense I think you are correct. I don't think Nihilism (a total absence of belief) as a way of life is tenable.
It seems that you are jumping from 'Atheists don't believe in a personal god' to 'Atheists don't believe in anything'; which is simply not the case.

Jrutledge

[Jrutledge]

In my opinion, all Secular Humanism does is elevate the individual to his or her own 'god-hood', and that, to me, constitutes a "belief". There is still an ultimate arbiter of right and wrong but that is the mortal human rather than the immortal God.

Initially I would like to point out that you have transitioned from 'Atheism' to 'Secular Humanism'-two different (though related) things. As an atheist I don't think I have replaced god, I have enough to do just to get the trash can to the curb every Wednesday morning. I just find the concept of god to be meaningless. You are speaking of ethics and morals here. One of the reasons why I transitioned from a Theist to an Atheist had to do with personal responsibility. I determined that I should act ethically because I felt, knew or believed, that is what I should do; not because some outside authority 'TOLD' me what to do. I also determined that I should be ultimately responsible for my actions. I shouldn't be allowed to use 'God told me so' as an excuse or a pat on the back.

Jrutledge

[Topher]

First, welcome back Topher- you've been missed.

Thanks. Real life got crazy for a while. It's still crazy, but I'm adapting.

I think I would wholeheartedly agree that I'd love to see such a study done, and I further agree that chances are pretty good that you won't see a massive gulf in a fair number of areas between the two groups. Most Christians and Atheists don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just try to live their lives to the best of their abilities. I'd argue that it is the spokesmen, usually self-appointed, for both groups that tend to polarize, or at least attempt to polarize, both groups. In that, Pat Robertson and Richard Dawkins are equally guilty.

Yeah, both Robertson and Dawkins are recruiters for their side, and they both are of the opinion that confrontation is more effective than accommodation. They are right, to a point, since both sides also have friendlier proponents to act as the good cops to their bad cops.

I recently read some articles suggesting that religion developed because it had an evolutionary benefit--it provided a reason for groups to work together toward common goals that enhanced their survivability--but I've read other articles suggesting that a tendency toward altruism may be genetic because it helps surviving members of the species survive even if the altruistic member sacrifices himself. I'd prefer to think that my instances of altruism are an educated response, but if it isn't, so be it.

And Jrutledge, yeah, I do agree that it seems many people use religion as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility, which is deplorable, but fortunately it isn't universal. I think in many cases it's the difference between those who think God is a benevolent creator/observer and those who think he meddles in our daily affairs.

Topher

[Media Rookie]

And Jrutledge, yeah, I do agree that it seems many people use religion as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility, which is deplorable, but fortunately it isn't universal. I think in many cases it's the difference between those who think God is a benevolent creator/observer and those who think he meddles in our daily affairs.

Topher

If I may chime in here with a Christian perspective. Topher this is a misconception among many. That those that believe in God do so that he will take care of us. Most christians I know look to God to take care of them emotionally not physically altho we/they believe he does to a certain extent. For example, when my mom was sick I prayed for God to look after her, but also wanted the best medical care from doctors.

When she died, I looked to God to ease my pain and I believe he did.

If a christian does look to God to avoid personal responsibility they do so at their own peril.

Ya know this reminds me of the argument many on the left make that Christ was a socialist which from my own studies is laughable, because I do believe he taught said personal responsibiility. That it is his followers that should help the poor and the needy not government beauracrats. (sp?)

[Topher]

If I may chime in here with a Christian perspective. Topher this is a misconception among many. That those that believe in God do so that he will take care of us. Most christians I know look to God to take care of them emotionally not physically altho we/they believe he does to a certain extent. For example, when my mom was sick I prayed for God to look after her, but also wanted the best medical care from doctors.

When she died, I looked to God to ease my pain and I believe he did.

If a christian does look to God to avoid personal responsibility they do so at their own peril.

I agree that people "avoid personal responsibility...at their own peril." A belief in a higher power can be therapeutic for some, and I really don't want to take that away from people, even if I cannot share that belief. I do know *some* Christians who avoid personal responsibility due to their beliefs, and I see them sometimes suffer as a result.

Topher

[Phinehas]

Jrutledge -

I can't imagine anyone retaining their belief in a personal god after childhood

Well, I wasn't making a point of a belief in anything at childhood, only that there is a status of a neutral mind from birth to some point in childhood.

At some point most of us realize that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy

I hear this type of argument all the time from atheists. It's not equal to a belief in "something" prior to the universe's existence that is the cause of the universe. While these stories may have some connection to truth, i.e. character(s) or thoughts based on actual historical people or explanations of natural observations, parents don't perpetuate these concepts with the starting belief that they are true as such. No parent has a belief that there is a being that gives children toys every year, when in reality they are the ones that purchase the toys...unless they have a rather peculiar mental heath issue. Not so with a desire for a parent to teach them about the concept of God, they actually believe in the God.

It seems that you are jumping from 'Atheists don't believe in a personal god' to 'Atheists don't believe in anything'; which is simply not the case.

No, I was simply questioning whether anyone, atheists in particular, since it's the assertion of many, can have a neutral mind, i.e. a lack of belief.

I also determined that I should be ultimately responsible for my actions.

I don't think most theists disagree with that at all. I think the disagreement is on whether there is an objective and absolute standard and whether or not we are accoutable to something greater than ourselves.

[WeaponOfMassInstruction]

Initially I would like to point out that you have transitioned from 'Atheism' to 'Secular Humanism'-two different (though related) things.

I will cop to intentionally conflating the two but, in doing so, I have much company.

As an atheist I don't think I have replaced god, I have enough to do just to get the trash can to the curb every Wednesday morning. I just find the concept of god to be meaningless.

I wouldn't give thanks to God for getting my trash to the curb on Wednesday. I would give thanks to God for haivng a home and the means to generate said trash (in terms of having a job and sufficient income to provide for my family).

You are speaking of ethics and morals here. One of the reasons why I transitioned from a Theist to an Atheist had to do with personal responsibility. I determined that I should act ethically because I felt, knew or believed, that is what I should do; not because some outside authority 'TOLD' me what to do. I also determined that I should be ultimately responsible for my actions. I shouldn't be allowed to use 'God told me so' as an excuse or a pat on the back.

Jrutledge

In this you and I agree.

I have believed since I was capable of ciphering such things out that, while God knew me well before I was born, He allowed and allows me the Free Will to do what I will and that He will hold me accountable for my actions once my days here on Earth are over. I've never subscribed to the theory that God foreordained our actions. I completely agree that some Christians, along with some believers of pretty much all other religions, do believe that their actions were determined long ago by God and that they are powerless to change what will be. In this I just happen to disagree with them. I do believe that we are responsible for the things we do and don't do, and I see no real conflict between that and being a Christian.

[Jrutledge]

And Jrutledge, yeah, I do agree that it seems many people use religion as an excuse to avoid personal responsibility

This a very minor point, but in my previous post I never meant to address anything other than my relationship (or non-relationship) with god. My comments were not intended to malign or make sweeping statements about theists, whether they be Christian or otherwise. I don't think most theists are 'personally irresponsible' because of their belief in a personal god, and I apologize if my comments suggested that. I was just trying to explain my (and only my) reasons for becoming an atheist. I didn't, and don't, intend to project my beliefs and values on anyone.

Jrutledge

p.s. Topher, like Weaps I welcome you back to this forum. I hope all is well and getting better.

[liverlips41]

I believe the first question should be, how do you define a Christian?

[Topher]

I believe the first question should be, how do you define a Christian?

I think the simplest definition is "anyone who calls themselves a Christian." I know many evangelicals don't consider Catholics or Mormons to be Christians, but I don't think that distinction is proper.

Topher

[liverlips41]

Jesus said, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." (Matthew 7:13) I'll just skip any discussion on this topic, for many will accuse me of bigotry.