Franken vs. Goldberg

Discuss the various aspects of Bernard Goldberg's "Bias," the smash bestseller with all the inside baseball from one of their own! Discuss the various aspects of Arrogance, the 2nd NYT's bestseller.

Franken vs. Goldberg

Unread postby mediaskeptic » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:39 pm

[note: I wrote this up for a friend who has a noticeable blind spot when it comes to media bias. When I discovered your site, sir, I hoped you might enjoy it. Thanks for your great work.]

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One of the things that interest me about the media bias argument is the asymmetry with which the left and right approach the subject. Al Franken’s book, Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them, and Bernard Goldberg’s Bias – A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News are apropos.

In Chapter 6 of Lies, Franken accuses Goldberg of “selectivityâ€
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Franken vs. Goldberg

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Unread postby MrSinatra » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:12 am

very interesting, thx for posting that.
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Unread postby CowboyBebop » Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:02 pm

Very well written. My guess is you're a professor or someone in the media. But that's not important.

Anyway, Franken gets away with his inaccuracies with one simple statement: "I'm a satirist." :roll: He's either a satirist or a political and news commentator. If he's going to be the latter, he needs to use facts. Then again, that's too much of a stretch for the left these days. They just can't get over the fact that they don't completely control the media.
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Unread postby mediaskeptic » Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:51 pm

I'm chuckling because you are so right. I've debated friends who have actually used the "he was being funny" or "it's satire" defense over and over again as though it has limitless capacity to absolve Franken of any responsibility to be honest.

It's a meme that spreads among the faithful like a talking point, and Franken's fans are True Believers in the purest sense.

An interesting post script to the argument at this point comes from an analysis of the 2004 election by the very same group that Franken cited. This time, however, they concluded that Bush received a third less positive and three times more negative coverage than did Kerry.

This contradiction is problematic for Franken, who butresses his argument heavily on the 2000 study results. However, it reinforces Goldberg's credibility even further since he told us political coverage in not reliable.

Because of the dubious and often desperate tactics used, I find that Franken's critique has had the opposite effect than what he intended. I trust and respect Mr. Goldberg even more now.
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Unread postby WeaponOfMassInstruction » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:58 pm

Part of the problem as I see it is common both to Franken and to John Stewart.

Both are 'satirists', yet they tackle serious issues and pose serious (well, occasionally) questions to serious people. To me, that indicates that they want to, at some level, be taken as (hate to be redundant) serious pundits.

With the appellation 'pundit' comes a greater responsibility to have your facts in order and to some extent sublimate your personal opinion to the truth as the facts establish it. What you could dismiss as being witty were you only a 'satirist' cannot be so easily explained away when you attempt to be taken seriously.

I think Franken has the weaker claim to being a satirist now since he joined "Air (Embezzling) America". If he's going to make hysterical and unsupportable accusations on the radio under the guise of punditry, you can't hide behind the mantle of being a 'funny man' (not that Franken ever could do so but that's another rant). With the respect comes responsibility.

Excellent post. Thanks for sharing it and hope you'll do such again.
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Unread postby TheNun » Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:58 pm

Regardless of whether or not Al Franken is right. I don't see how he's "hurting america". Despite Goldberg's pal O'Reilly need to make him into a "left wing smear merchant", he's no more vicious than the people he attacks.

Also, Bernard Goldberg's book is much like Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine. I'm not saying it distorts the truth. I'm saying the book is a big contradiction(okay to be fair I've only scanned through it but read on), on Stewart's show he says "the culture is getting more angry!", Michael Moore claims "the media is keeping us afraid!", Goldberg's solution is to the culture getting more angry is to put out an attack book?? Moore says there's nothing to be afraid of except GUNS! and White People!!

I don't hate Goldberg I just think he's wrong.

And that was a far jump he took on Stewart's show from Chevy Chase saying the F word to gangster rap. What aren't there like 2 rappers on the list and one guy who heads a rap label?
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Unread postby Cortese » Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:24 pm

TheNun wrote:I'm saying the book is a big contradiction(okay to be fair I've only scanned through it but read on...


To be fair to Bernie, you need to read the whole book and not just scan it before making such posts. I cannot tell you how many people have come onto these boards stating the very same things you have but turn around and say that they haven't read the book. I'm sorry, please don't take this personally, but it really makes you sound foolish.
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Unread postby RebelSnake » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:48 am

(okay to be fair I've only scanned through it


Don't you think it would be a good idea to actually read a book before critiquing it?

Moore says there's nothing to be afraid of except GUNS! and White People!!


I don't see how he's "hurting america".



You must be wearing blinders if you can't see the harm in a statement such as this.
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Testing testing 123

Unread postby ratmand » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:31 pm

testing
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Unread postby TheNun » Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:59 pm

I haven't read the book. I've only scanned through it.

However my judgments against Goldberg are from his own statements about the book.
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Unread postby JKersting » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:03 pm

TheNun wrote:I haven't read the book. I've only scanned through it.

However my judgments against Goldberg are from his own statements about the book.


Read it. Basing judgments against someone for something that you have not seen with your own two eyes is simply a case of intentional ignorance. You can get it at your library or, as I told Bernie about Arrogance, at a bookstore on closeout.

Then comment on his book and on him. Until them, you lack credibility due to your position of willing ignorance.
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Unread postby RebelSnake » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:11 am

JKersting wrote: Until them, you lack credibility due to your position of willing ignorance.


I really don't mean to pick nits here, but shouldn't that be "willful ignorance"?
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Unread postby JKersting » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:39 am

RebelSnake wrote:
JKersting wrote: Until them, you lack credibility due to your position of willing ignorance.


I really don't mean to pick nits here, but shouldn't that be "willful ignorance"?


Whatever.

Was my point made?

I am not a writer so if I am trying to say that someone is ignorant at their own will, that is my point. Then again, it is also redundant. Ignorance is always at ones own choosing. Stupidity is not. And I do not think that the person I was responding to was stupid. I was redundant because so many people use the word ignorant interchangeably with stupid and I wanted to make sure that I was clear.
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Unread postby RebelSnake » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:41 pm

Whoa now. I didn't mean to make you mad. I understood your point.
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Unread postby CowboyBebop » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:57 pm

Actually, I find that people (my sister is the biggest culprit) also tend to use "ignorant" to mean rude. Your point was made, nonetheless Jay.
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