homosexuality, religion, real conservatism

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homosexuality, religion, real conservatism

Unread postby CWNelson79 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:07 am

You know what i get sick of. I get sick of evangelical christian conservatives being just as abused by the right as the left. It is an elitist attitude, and its nothing more then people wanting to be immoral , and not judged for it. Without absolute morals, then anyone can go anything. Thats not freedom that is anarchy.

Homosexuality is wrong, its immoral, its unnatural, and only about 1-2 percent of the population is even homosexual. Its mainstreaming makes me sick, and makes obvious that conservatives have not fought hard enough against this issue. Instead of live and let live, i prefer to say live and let tell the truth. I don't care if i am labeled a homophobe, intolerant or any other catch phrase the radical homosexual agenda driven groups come up with. I would be being dishonest, and be doing a disservice to homosexuals if i did not tell them they were wrong and their behavior was destructive. America cannot afford to lose its moral high ground which is erroding everyday. Same sex marriage is wrong, and so are civil unions. They give legtiamacy to a lifestyle that is wrong and should never be endorsed in any way by Americans.

Same thing with abortion, or as i like to call it truthfully, the murder of babies. What kind of backwards world can this be if we turn our heads to the death and murder of innocent babies all in the name of supposed rights? What right does a woman have to murder an innocent baby? Murder is illegal, and so should abortion be. And not only late term abortion, but all abortion. Its one thing to save a mother's life, but other then that it is murder any way you cut it. Babies are not pets, not toys, not little gimmicks, they are human beings. Abortion is evil, and should not be tolerated in a moral society.

As far as stem cells. There is alot of hype behind them. They don't work the way people claim or try to claim they do, i should say. Its another politically driven utopian lie. Killing life to fix life is ridiculous enough, but even the science behind it does not pan out completely. We need a culture of life, and not death. Life is sacred, not a tool to use up and eliminate when someone feels like it. Not in the name of science, and not in the name of rights. Morals are above so called rights, and above destructive science. Real conservatism realises this, and does not pussyfoot around with these issues. To act like its just about crazy right wing evangelicals is B.S. Its not fair, and its not honest.
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Gal. 4:16
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homosexuality, religion, real conservatism

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Unread postby Topher » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:06 pm

Well, heck, I'll be happy to abuse you.

I have no problem with you being opposed to homosexuality, abortion, same sex marriage, civil unions, and stem cell research. I'm perfectly happy with you choosing not to have homosexual sex, an abortion, marrying or entering into a civil union with someone of the same sex, or funding or later benefiting from the potential results of stem cell research.

What I am opposed to is evangelical Christian conservatives telling everyone else that they can't have homosexual sex, an abortion, marrying or entering into a civil union with someone of the same sex, or funding or later benefiting from the potential results of stem cell research. Personally, I don't think any of these things should be funded or regulated by the government, with the exception that abortions should only be performed by licensed medical professionals. Marriage and civil unions shouldn't be a government function for anyone, as this is primarily a religious ceremony. I'd prefer that all medical research save that of the CDC (because of the risks of epidemics) be funded privately.

You can live your life by your morality, but you don't have any right to tell others that they have to live by your moral code. As long as someone else's morality doesn't unreasonably interfere with your way of life, it shouldn't affect you at all (obviously, if someone's moral code states that they need to harm the life, liberty, or property of another, that's interfering with their way of life).

Live your life. Leave mine alone.

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Unread postby JKersting » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:28 pm

T-

Be careful. You ALMOST quoted Billy Joel.

But only ALMOST.
Jay Kersting
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " Reagan
"Now more than ever before,the people are responsible for the character of their Congress.If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption."Garfield
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Unread postby JKersting » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:32 pm

Oh...and EVANGELICALS are NOT, in any way, shape or form REAL CONSERVATIVES.

Real conservatives want GOVERNMENT out of your life. REAL, TRUE Conservatives, as I told the College Republicans at the University of Tennessee when they invited me to speak to them in October 2006, do NOT believe in an anti Flag Burning Amendment. They would not believe in a marriage amendment.

Evangelicals and other Christians stepped in, in the NAME ONLY of conservatism, and have pushed those values forward.

Well, they are NOT CONSERVATIVE and they are WRONG.

PERIOD.
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"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " Reagan
"Now more than ever before,the people are responsible for the character of their Congress.If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption."Garfield
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Unread postby CWNelson79 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:56 am

I feel like i am talking to liberals.

Its not about pushing any moral code on anyone. Its about keeping America the traditional country that it should be. Not some secular progressive sess pool like europe or some other country. Do you honestly think the founding fathers would be ok with homosexual marriage, abortion and stem cells? If someone brought those issues up they would first laugh and then be shocked when someone said no really its not a joke, people really want those things.

I have every right to demand marriage be treated as a sacred institution between a man and a woman. It is a stabelizing force in society. Homosexuality is a destabelizing force. It spread disease, immorality, and destroys the family unit. And you don't even have to be a christian to see that.

Abortion is just plain murder and therefore should never be protected one bit. Its the radical lefty's who brought it about, and its the radical lefty's who still want it. Abortion is a vile thing, it is barbaric and i feel unconstituional since it prevetns a baby to its right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Stem cells don't work, another propoganda routine. If they did plenty of money from private groups would be flowing in to do the research.


Call me crazy, but i prefer marriage and life be protected then destroyed.
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
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Unread postby JKersting » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:32 am

CWNelson79 wrote:Stem cells don't work, another propoganda routine. If they did plenty of money from private groups would be flowing in to do the research.


You could at least be accurate.

Stem cells do work. Plenty of adult stem cells have been used quite successfully and plenty of private research money is going in to that. Also, stem cells taken from placentas are being looked into by Wake Forest University.

You SHOULD BE SAYING embryonic stem cells. You have NOT been saying that.

That makes your statements on this issue look as ignorant as the rest of your statements.

As for our founding fathers, they would stay out of our lives. It IS what they stood for, or have you forgotten your history?
Jay Kersting
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " Reagan
"Now more than ever before,the people are responsible for the character of their Congress.If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption."Garfield
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Unread postby Topher » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:19 am

Find the word "marriage" in the U.S. Constitution. (It isn't there.) Like I said above, marriage shouldn't be a governmental function at all--it should be just a religious matter. Your church can do whatever the heck it wants. But if marriage is such a stabilizing force, why is the divorce rate in the South (where people are very religious and fairly conservative, in general) much higher than that in the Northeast (where people are much less religious and much more liberal regarding marriage)?

As far as homosexuality spreading disease, I can't disagree. However, I'm pretty sure that the recent study showing that 24% of teenage girls had an STD wasn't a sample taken solely from lesbians. (I've seen several studies that indicate that lesbians have a much lower rate of most STDs than either homosexual men or heterosexual men and women.) Immorality is subjective, so coming to a rational conclusion on that isn't possible. On destroying the family unit, I'd like to see the evidence of that. When homosexuality destroys a family unit, from what I have seen it's usually because parents disown a child because he's gay. In effect, the family unit is destroyed because the parents are adhering to orthodox views instead of being accepting.

In the time of the Founding Fathers, abortion wasn't uncommon--it was a generally accepted practice if it was performed before movement was detected from the fetus. It wasn't until churches became involved in the 1800's that it became "immoral."

In any case, the way to promote your agenda is to convince people that your moral code is correct and not to shove it down the throats of those who may disagree with your view.

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Unread postby JKersting » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:55 pm

Topher wrote:In any case, the way to promote your agenda is to convince people that your moral code is correct and not to shove it down the throats of those who may disagree with your view.

Topher


That is what I like about MOST of Roman Catholic teachings. I was taught to "minister by being a good example" rather than getting in one's face.

I am not a perfect example, but I do my best to discuss my ideas and encourage debate.

I will admit that I can be wrong. I know, my wife told me.
Jay Kersting
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " Reagan
"Now more than ever before,the people are responsible for the character of their Congress.If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption."Garfield
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Unread postby CWNelson79 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:36 pm

Jkersting don't be willfully dense. Ofcourse i was talking about embryonic stem cells. Who argues about the other kinds?

Alot of things are not in the constitution. Alot of things the founding fathers never thought in a million years would ever come to pass. Like the attack on marriage. You cannot always let people decide what to do. That never worked with slavery or segregation for example. Sometimes in the interest of protecting America, and promoting morality, doing the right thing, one must force issues. To protect life one must fight against abortion and stem cells. To protect marriage one must fight against radical homosexuals. Divorce has nothing to do with it. divorce is another issue thats undermines marriage, and should be dealt with. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. Changing that is opening pandora's box to all sorts of fun things.

I have to make it clear. I am a gun toting, bible thumping, flag waving conservative. not a moderate, not some neo con, or libertarian. I am not some ivy league high class snobbish elite washingtonian. And i do always put my chirstianity before my conservatism if they would ever clash.


I love the being accepting ploy. Why should parents be accepting of a damaging and immoral behavior like homosexuality? Parents are to love their kids and tell them when they are doing wrong. Love is about the truth, and setting people on the right path, not playcating them and being accepting or tolerant of bad behavior. I would be a bad christian and morally wrong if i did not point out to a homosexual that they were wrong.

I would imagine the church did get involved with abortion. To protect the life of an innocent baby one should get involved. Sitting by and letting innocent life be destroyed is not christian.


The founding fathers' founded the country on judeo christian philosophy so it should not shock anyone. The founding fathers were either deists freindly to christianity or christians. By the way, morlaity is not subjective. you cannot have true morality outside of the bible, the word of God.


As far as what the catholics might tell you to do. The bible, tells a christian to go out and spread the word. Not hide it. I don't even find catholicism all that biblical or christian in alot of what they teach.
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
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Unread postby Topher » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:44 pm

Genesis 19:8.

Gotta love that biblical morality. Please don't hurt these angels, please gang-rape my daughters instead.

I think I'll look somewhere else for my morality. Your source is flawed.

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Unread postby JKersting » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:23 pm

CWNelson79 wrote:Jkersting don't be willfully dense. Ofcourse i was talking about embryonic stem cells. Who argues about the other kinds?


One who believes that the world, LITERALLY, is only 6000 year old is calling ME willfully dense? :roll:

WOW! :roll:

That is interesting. :roll:

Considering the source, that is something I should accept as a COMPLIMENT. :lol:

OH, and as far as arguing about other kinds of stem cells....plenty of people do. Say what you mean in the future. I had several people call the show to question the morality of tapping into placentas and cord blood for any use other than disposal.

Because you are too ignorant to have been exposed to the arguments does not mean that they don't happen. And you should not assume that the don't exist, much the way you dismiss dinosaurs existance (apparently).
Jay Kersting
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " Reagan
"Now more than ever before,the people are responsible for the character of their Congress.If that body be ignorant, reckless and corrupt, it is because the people tolerate ignorance, recklessness and corruption."Garfield
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Unread postby Jim Rutledge » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:28 pm

CWNelson79 wrote:Parents are to love their kids and tell them when they are doing wrong. Love is about the truth, and setting people on the right path

Some years ago, as a non-believing parent, it occurred to me that I should teach my children about the fundamentally sound lessons in the bible, you know honesty, virtue, etc. So, I went to my local book store, grabbed the first book in that section, opened it, and was immediately confronted with the story of Abraham & his son Isaac. It was not a story I was unfamiliar with. For the uninitiated, this is the where Abraham (at the direction of his lord) is prepared to kill, er, sacrifice, his son to display his dedication to his lord.

Now, those of you who are fathers, tell me how do you read that story to your sons, or your daughters??
Daddy, would you kill me if god asked?
Well no, honey, I don't think I would, but I'm not sure.

I think Topher had this right, look elsewhere for your source of morality.

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Unread postby CWNelson79 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:53 pm

The story of Abraham is not even about sacrifise. Its about obediance to God. God never intented to let Abraham kill his son. So people get upset because he didn't kill his son? Nah, God just wanted to make sure he was the most important thing to Abraham. It was a test, nothing more. and further more, that was in the old testament times. What you should do instead of complaining, is read the bible to your kids and then instead of taking something out of context and putting up straw men like them asking if you would sacrifise them for God. Explain to your kids what it means.


Nobody argues about other stem cells. You are just trying to cover your ignorance. You knew full well what i was referring too, and if you didn't then you are not too swift. And using the 6000 example as your argument against me is lazy. Topher did all the arguing for you, and you just agreed like a spineless twit. And i never once said dinosaurs do not exist. This shows you know nada about creationism.


As far as genesis 19:8
First you might want to know what it actually means.

http://www.biblemeanings.info/Bible/Genesis/ch19,v8-m.htm


http://www.tektonics.org/gk/genhom.html
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
Gal. 4:16
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Unread postby Topher » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:06 pm

Do we really have to resort to name calling?

The first link is perhaps the most convoluted explanation I've ever read, but I can almost buy the second. It still doesn't quite satisfy me, but I can at least see the point.

Personally, I think this little comparison shows how merciful God is:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum ... rancy/3582

In any case, I still think your insistence that the Bible is the sole valid source for a moral code is seriously flawed.

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Unread postby Jim Rutledge » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:14 pm

CWNelson79 wrote:God never intented to let Abraham kill his son.

Well CW, It seems that You, and perhaps only You know what god intents!! What a gift.

CWNelson79 wrote: Nah, God just wanted to make sure he was the most important thing to Abraham. It was a test, nothing more.

And nothing less. If that type of behavior was exhibited by any of us, we would justifiably be classified as jealous, mean-spirited and very, very, very sadistic. Why would anyone worship an entity who had those characteristics??

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