Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby Jeffreydan » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:53 am

A couple or so years back, I debated here for a while with an MJ fan. She defended his "sleeping habit" and thought it to be pretty innocent.

I gave her my take on MJ, which remains the same: it's entirely possible and arguable that he didn't molest kids.
I couldn't say for sure he did, but I reiterated that it is stunningly inappropriate to conduct yourself with kids the way MJ did. It doesn't matter how harmless or wonderful he is/was, you don't have small, strange kids in your bed!

She didn't care, and remained on "spin" mode. MJ's fans are a rabid bunch, more so than I could ever be towards my favorite artist.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby bruno » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:24 am

Jeffreydan,
jackson admitted to sleeping with kids so that much we know. We also know about the payoffs going back as far as 1990.

Along with other bizarre facts about jackson, that leads to two serious questions:

1. Why risk all the consequences stemming from sleeping with kids that aren’t your own if you truly don’t have a strongly inherent desire to have sex with them?
2. Why pay anyone a dime if you truly haven’t done anything wrong?

No matter how jackson’s fans spin or slice it, these questions can only be answered sensibly by just one thing--that jackson indeed got away with molesting kids. How many and how often is something we may never know, but make no mistake about this: jackson did molest kids whose parents were stupid enough to trust him and then settled for a once-in-a-lifetime payday rather than fighting for their child’s justice and their own dignity.

I think jackson preyed on these parents luring them to live the good life for awhile on his dime. If the parents got drawn into it (most probably didn't, but some did), he then preyed on their kid. In that sense, jackson wasn't really much different from a black widow spider. Only difference is this particular arachnid got a full-blown funeral with all the bells and whistles covered in detail in a media frenzy and voluntarily witnessed by billions instead of what it really deserved: being squashed under a boot.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby pubjohn47 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:11 am

bruno wrote: Why risk all the consequences stemming from sleeping with kids that aren’t your own if you truly don’t have a strongly inherent desire to have sex with them?
2. Why pay anyone a dime if you truly haven’t done anything wrong? .


The reason so many kids are screwed up these days is because ever since they were babies, they slept in different rooms from their parents and developed an "abandonment syndrome" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_child_syndrome )


People, especially in the east, have been sleeping beside children for thousands of years and its got more to do with love and nothing to do with sex.


Why did Michael Jackson pay anybody; because I believe he got poor legal advice, he was being generous and he did not want to drag out a case and have people think he harmed children.

Settling a case does not make one guilty, just as paying a traffic fine does not mean the admittance of guilt
The powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank " while Americans have to forgo a secure and healthier standard of living due to over a trillion dollars being looted every year by the greedy military/industrial complex, resulting in blowback policies that create more danger than safety for the American people
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby bruno » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:09 pm

pubjohn47 wrote:The reason so many kids are screwed up these days is because ever since they were babies, they slept in different rooms from their parents and developed an "abandonment syndrome" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_child_syndrome )


People, especially in the east, have been sleeping beside children for thousands of years and its got more to do with love and nothing to do with sex.
If their own children, fine. Someone else’s, then it’s totally sick! I never slept with any adult besides my parents and never past the age of 5. Nor would I allow my own children (regardless of age) to sleep with any adult besides me or my wife. Once they reach a discrete age, they sleep on their own.

Using the excuse of “nurturing” to sleep with any child at any age who’s not your own is way beyond sick and you should have your head examined if that’s how you really see things.

pubjohn47 wrote:Why did Michael Jackson pay anybody; because I believe he got poor legal advice, he was being generous and he did not want to drag out a case and have people think he harmed children.

It all eventually came out anyway and the payoffs ultimately hurt his case for innocence. Are you really that stupid and gullible to believe he got poor legal advice or was just being generous to his accusers? :roll:


pubjohn47 wrote:Settling a case does not make one guilty, just as paying a traffic fine does not mean the admittance of guilt


Your explanation is beyond lame. This isn’t even remotely the same as traffic court so that’s yet another red herring. No one would treat a traffic violator--even if they really did make an improper lane change—as much of a pariah as they would if they had reason to suspect the person were really a pedophile.

Putting aside your spin, here's the real meat of the issue:

1. jackson paid off a boy in 1990, reason? Improper sexual contact..

2. jackson paid off a boy in 1993, reason? Improper sexual contact..

3. jackson paid off a boy in 200*, reason? Improper sexual contact..

That's exactly three payoffs too many for any innocent person to make. So why did jackson make them? Maybe because he really was NOT innocent. :idea:

I really don't care how much talent and humanity jackson allegedly had. jackson was a menace to children in every country of the world…including his own.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby dariovinny62 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:04 pm

bruno wrote:
dariovinny62 wrote:
bruno wrote:Exactly! Nothing good came from such extensive media coverage of a sorry excuse for a man who paid millions to keep his sorry self out of jail for molesting children. I don't care about jackson the performer either. if jackson had done to my own children what he did to others, i'd have given him a good reason to have plastic surgery....if not an earlier funeral.
Bruno,
I agree. Apparently, if Manson or Hitler had produced "Thriller" and could dance the "Moonwalk", everything else they did would be unimportant by comparison. Granted genocide is much worse than anything MJ was ever accused of, but give me a break. His "loyal fans", every one of them defenders and apologists, have done the following for years, but really laid it on thick since his death: giving the guy a free pass, cheering him on no matter what, having no critical insight on his admitted payoffs, offering nothing but praise, and much more.

That's what really led to Michael Jackson's self-destruction IMHO. Good job to all his so-called fans. :roll:

Dario,
Good to see there’s at least one American who understands the folly in this ill-advised and blatantly biased use of the media. Just sorry you had to be exposed to psychobabble idiocy of pubjohn47 for your commendable effort. Don’t worry, though. His (or is it her?) defense of Jackson has been exposed here for what it really is. Pubjohn47 was also exposed as the fraud that he (maybe she) really is here.

There’s a common adage I'd like to paraphrase in a gender-neutral style that I think describes pubjohn47’s current predicament perfectly: if you give any idiot enough rope, they’ll eventually hang themselves. :lol:
Thanks, Bruno...for everything from understanding where I'm coming from to actually salvaging this thread for others to comment! :D

As far as pubjohn47 goes, I added him to my foe list because he just got too annoying so I can't read what he has to say unless you (or someone else) quotes him. Your choice, of course, but I don't miss much of what he has to say. :D
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby dariovinny62 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:09 pm

Jeffreydan wrote:A couple or so years back, I debated here for a while with an MJ fan. She defended his "sleeping habit" and thought it to be pretty innocent.

I gave her my take on MJ, which remains the same: it's entirely possible and arguable that he didn't molest kids.
I couldn't say for sure he did, but I reiterated that it is stunningly inappropriate to conduct yourself with kids the way MJ did. It doesn't matter how harmless or wonderful he is/was, you don't have small, strange kids in your bed!

She didn't care, and remained on "spin" mode. MJ's fans are a rabid bunch, more so than I could ever be towards my favorite artist.
Of course, all of these bizarre quirks were NOT dissected...heck not even skimmed over...by the press during their two-week long eulogy. :roll:

Thanks for sharing your take on MJ. :D

I agree that the sleeping with children was very bizarre, but I suspect there's much more to this behavior than we'll ever know.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby dariovinny62 » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:16 pm

bruno wrote:Jeffreydan,
jackson admitted to sleeping with kids so that much we know. We also know about the payoffs going back as far as 1990.

Along with other bizarre facts about jackson, that leads to two serious questions:

1. Why risk all the consequences stemming from sleeping with kids that aren’t your own if you truly don’t have a strongly inherent desire to have sex with them?
2. Why pay anyone a dime if you truly haven’t done anything wrong?

No matter how jackson’s fans spin or slice it, these questions can only be answered sensibly by just one thing--that jackson indeed got away with molesting kids. How many and how often is something we may never know, but make no mistake about this: jackson did molest kids whose parents were stupid enough to trust him and then settled for a once-in-a-lifetime payday rather than fighting for their child’s justice and their own dignity.

I think jackson preyed on these parents luring them to live the good life for awhile on his dime. If the parents got drawn into it (most probably didn't, but some did), he then preyed on their kid. In that sense, jackson wasn't really much different from a black widow spider. Only difference is this particular arachnid got a full-blown funeral with all the bells and whistles covered in detail in a media frenzy and voluntarily witnessed by billions instead of what it really deserved: being squashed under a boot.

Bruno,
Excellent analysis of Jackson's relationship with these boys. While not an absolute slam-dunk sufficient for a court conviction, you raise some important questions that I think his fans...and many in the press...all too often sidestep or ignore. You're entitled to your convictions about Jackson because...unlike many of his fans...you've seemed to have considered at least the most pertinent facts before reaching your conclusion.

Getting back to my original question, do you think the press coverage was fair or even appropriate? I doubt you do, but just wanted to hear what else you thought about it.

Dave
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby bruno » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:14 pm

dariovinny62 wrote:
bruno wrote:Jeffreydan,
jackson admitted to sleeping with kids so that much we know. We also know about the payoffs going back as far as 1990.

Along with other bizarre facts about jackson, that leads to two serious questions:

1. Why risk all the consequences stemming from sleeping with kids that aren’t your own if you truly don’t have a strongly inherent desire to have sex with them?
2. Why pay anyone a dime if you truly haven’t done anything wrong?

No matter how jackson’s fans spin or slice it, these questions can only be answered sensibly by just one thing--that jackson indeed got away with molesting kids. How many and how often is something we may never know, but make no mistake about this: jackson did molest kids whose parents were stupid enough to trust him and then settled for a once-in-a-lifetime payday rather than fighting for their child’s justice and their own dignity.

I think jackson preyed on these parents luring them to live the good life for awhile on his dime. If the parents got drawn into it (most probably didn't, but some did), he then preyed on their kid. In that sense, jackson wasn't really much different from a black widow spider. Only difference is this particular arachnid got a full-blown funeral with all the bells and whistles covered in detail in a media frenzy and voluntarily witnessed by billions instead of what it really deserved: being squashed under a boot.

Bruno,
Excellent analysis of Jackson's relationship with these boys. While not an absolute slam-dunk sufficient for a court conviction, you raise some important questions that I think his fans...and many in the press...all too often sidestep or ignore. You're entitled to your convictions about Jackson because...unlike many of his fans...you've seemed to have considered at least the most pertinent facts before reaching your conclusion.

Getting back to my original question, do you think the press coverage was fair or even appropriate? I doubt you do, but just wanted to hear what else you thought about it.

Dave

Dave,
Of course, I think the press coverage the last two weeks well went beyond what should be considered sane and deep into the the realms of absolute lunacy. When decent people like Peter King questioned all this by bringing up legitimate points about jackson's past, charges of racism were levelled at them. This was a complete circus and showed just how deeply depraved the media and Western society has become. I too was sick of all this coverage of jackson who himself was one sick puppy.

Also, it's really amazing how the likes of jesse "Marble Mouth" jackson, and al "James Brown" sharpton can twist anything...and I mean anything...into a black vs. white situation. To paraphrase sharpy, "I hope Michael gets the respect that was given to Frank Sinatra and Elvis Presley". Did he really say that with a straight face? Who is he kidding? The major problem with that is, even though jackson clearly didn't deserve it, he actually got better post-mortem treatment by the press than either of those two ever did. In 1977, the year Elvis died, did the media not continually discuss his drug addiction? Hell, they still talk about it to this day. Also, wasn't Sinatra always thought to have been "involved" with the mafia? Didn't the media harp on that as well? sharpy needs to get off whatever bandwagon he's trying to drive here.

Part of the reason we STILL have these race issues are because people like jesse and sharpy (along with many many others) always--and I mean always--keep themselves in front of the cameras of a docile and compliant media claiming discrimination even if the facts and/or circumstances doesn't justify such a charge. They need to just let it go already. Though if that happened, how on Earth could these toilet suckers ever hope to make money? They are making millions off the backs of the so-called "repressed" minorities like jackson.

Which brings us full circle: jackson was a sick, sick, sick man. I have no doubts that he was a pedophile and that his death made the world safer for the kids of the world...including his own. America ought not stoop so low in society to celebrate his existence by honoring him with a national holiday or even a single day of mourning. Hell this freak doesn't even merit his mug on a postage stamp. Just bury him next to bubbles the chimp and let's FINALLY move on to far more important issues. Let's think about our militaries and how they are keeping the other depraved idiots like the other jackson & Rev al sharpy free to spew their hateful bologna.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby Jeffreydan » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:29 am

dariovinny62 wrote:Getting back to my original question, do you think the press coverage was fair or even appropriate? I doubt you do, but just wanted to hear what else you thought about it.

Dave

My opinion, prob'ly not alone: the coverage of MJ's death hasn't just been overdone, but blown up to an obscene, unfair degree.

Take Johnny Carson, Paul Newman, and Ronald Reagan. Their deaths dominated newspapers' front pages, rightly so. Speaking for my paper, however, they got considerably less space than MJ did, and I find that astonishing. Even considering the age factor, for these men to have had less coverage reinforces Bernie's point about American culture. President Reagan was and remains a giant among world leaders. Carson exemplified, revolutionized, and elevated both the talk show and TV comedy in general. Newman? As big as any entertainer in history, and a bona fide saint compared to MJ.

Another aspect is the large number of high-profile deaths recently. A page or two, and maybe a small tease on the front page, were what my local paper provided for Carson's pal Ed McMahon, Farrah Fawcett, and Karl Malden. (Considerably less space was given to Gale Storm, Harve Presnell, Billy Mays, and William MacNamara(SP?), as they were certainly not as high-profile as the 1st three or MJ.)

Ed, Farrah, and Karl were/are pop-culture icons, each to certain degrees. I know I'm among countless others who remember "Heeeeeere's Johnny!", "Don't leave home without them", and that jaw-droppingly gorgeous poster. In addition to that, each had a more meaningful, admirable side. McMahon had a remarkable military record few knew about (myself included). Fawcett, while certainly no MIT professor, was actually as good an actress as she was a sex symbol. I don't know if she had the same vanity as others in Hollywood, but if so, she damn well kicked it to the curb when she spent her final days sharing her cancer experience with the world.
As for Malden, I wonder how many people in my generation (X) know that long before he brought us the AMEX tagline, he built an acting career that few people could ever duplicate. While many people in Hollywood are movie stars, he was a highly-respected, true to the core actor, with few peers in his generation. (I watched On the Waterfront again recently, and I can say for certain that he was every bit as irreplaceable in that film as Brando.)

The above-mentioned were sure as hell a far better class of person than MJ was, and I'd have been less surprised if he'd gotten no more pub than they did.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby pubjohn47 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:21 pm

Jeffreydan wrote:it's entirely possible and arguable that he didn't molest kids..


Michael Jackson was acquitted of all charges against him because there was no physical evidence that he ever had sex with a child.
The powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank " while Americans have to forgo a secure and healthier standard of living due to over a trillion dollars being looted every year by the greedy military/industrial complex, resulting in blowback policies that create more danger than safety for the American people
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby pubjohn47 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:29 pm

bruno wrote: I have no doubts that he was a pedophile .


If Michael Jackson was truly a pedophile, there would be physical evidence of sexual intercourse but there were none and that is why Michael Jackson was acquitted
The powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank " while Americans have to forgo a secure and healthier standard of living due to over a trillion dollars being looted every year by the greedy military/industrial complex, resulting in blowback policies that create more danger than safety for the American people
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby pubjohn47 » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:38 pm

bruno wrote:
pubjohn47 wrote:The reason so many kids are screwed up these days is because ever since they were babies, they slept in different rooms from their parents and developed an "abandonment syndrome" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandoned_child_syndrome )


People, especially in the east, have been sleeping beside children for thousands of years and its got more to do with love and nothing to do with sex.
If their own children, fine. . Someone else’s, then it’s totally sick! I never slept with any adult besides my parents and never past the age of 5. .


To Michael Jackson, sleeping beside kids would be like anybody having a sleepover . Is this normal ? probably not but Michael Jackson was not a normal person but a 10 year old "child" himself as stated by the Dr Stan Katz who was working for both the first accuser and for the second accuser.


Some people never grow out of their childhood due to traumatic events in their lives.

bruno wrote: Nor would I allow my own children (regardless of age) to sleep with any adult besides me or my wife. Once they reach a discrete age, they sleep on their own. .


I think you are assuming that Michael Jackson had a tiny bed to sleep on or that he might even have shared the bed with only one child but according to all reports, he never shared the bed with just one child and that he would sleep on the floor with several children sleeping in his bed.

So it was a regular sleepover with several children at one time.

With so many sleepovers with perhaps hundreds of children over a span of decades, why just two or three accusations ?

bruno wrote: Using the excuse of “nurturing” to sleep with any child at any age who’s not your own is way beyond sick and you should have your head examined if that’s how you really see things. .


As long as the bed is big enough to accomodate two people, there is nothing wrong with sharing a bed.

It is not like Michael Jackson had one tiny bed and only had one child with him during sleepovers and from the reports, he said he slept on the floor

bruno wrote:It all eventually came out anyway and the payoffs ultimately hurt his case for innocence. Are you really that stupid and gullible to believe he got poor legal advice or was just being generous to his accusers? :roll: .


His case would be hurt whichever way Michael Jackson chose to deal with the allegations.

The most recent case where he was acquitted, did people actually believe he was innocent after he was acquiited ? so it is understandable why he settled out of court in previous cases in which greedy parents took advantage of Michael Jackson.

There is no other explanation because actual pedophiles, especially rich and famous pedohphiles would have had sex with hundreds of children and there would be physical evidence of sexual intercourse


bruno wrote:
Your explanation is beyond lame. This isn’t even remotely the same as traffic court so that’s yet another red herring. No one would treat a traffic violator--even if they really did make an improper lane change—as much of a pariah as they would if they had reason to suspect the person were really a pedophile. .


You assume Michael Jackson is a pedophile whether he went to court and was acquitted or he settled out of court, right ? so settling out of court makes sense since people have already made up their minds about Michael Jackson, one way or other.

bruno wrote:Putting aside your spin, here's the real meat of the issue:

1. jackson paid off a boy in 1990, reason? Improper sexual contact...


I thought the first molestation charge was in 1993. do you have details about this case ?

bruno wrote:2. jackson paid off a boy in 1993, reason? Improper sexual contact.....


By January 1, 1994, $2 million had been spent by prosecution departments in California, two grand juries had questioned two hundred witnesses, but the boy's allegations could not be corroborated.

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child ... settlement

Comment :

If the allegations was rock solid, why no corroboration ?

and why did the father later sue Jackson for $60 million, if the case was not about money ?

and why did Jackson not settle the case with the father then, for $60 million that was asked for ?

If Michael Jackson was such a pedophile, why was there no physical evidence of the crime ?

If Michael Jackson was such a pedophile , why did the boy not want to testify against Michael Jackson ? Could it be that the accuser did not want to face Michael Jackson, because Michael Jackson was actually innocent ?


bruno wrote:3. jackson paid off a boy in 200*, reason? Improper sexual contact..

That's exactly three payoffs too many for any innocent person to make. So why did jackson make them? Maybe because he really was NOT innocent. :idea:

I really don't care how much talent and humanity jackson allegedly had. jackson was a menace to children in every country of the world…including his own.


I only counted two pay offs; so you need to send me details of the third pay off.

I counted two cases, one settled out of court after prosecution had called 2 grand juries and 200 witnesses without any corroborating evidence and then the case that did got to court in which Michael Jackson was acquitted.

A typical rich pedophile would have settled hundreds of cases but only two cases in the 50 year life of Michael Jackson ? Does not look like a pedophile to me.

Menace to children ?

so every time children touch each other, the child who does the touching becomes a menace or is it only when an adult touches a child ?

Back to the case : mental health professional Dr. Stan Katz said Jackson was a regressed 10-year-old, and did not fit the profile of a pedophile.

Once again,in this case, it was all about the money; The boy's mother approached Larry Feldman, the attorney who represented the first accuser in 1993.

Feldman then sent the family to psychologist Dr. Stan Katz, who was also the same psychologist that assisted the first accuser's family to uncover whether there might have been sexual abuse.

later, Dr Katz stated that in his opinion Jackson was not a pedophile but a regressed 10 year old

ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._ ... de_1108.29

Instead of going straight to the police, why did the mother go to the very attorney of the first accuser who settled out of court ? if money was not the motive ?
The powerful in the military/industrial complex are "laughing all the way to the bank " while Americans have to forgo a secure and healthier standard of living due to over a trillion dollars being looted every year by the greedy military/industrial complex, resulting in blowback policies that create more danger than safety for the American people
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby bruno » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:13 am

Jeffreydan wrote: As for Malden, I wonder how many people in my generation (X) know that long before he brought us the AMEX tagline, he built an acting career that few people could ever duplicate. While many people in Hollywood are movie stars, he was a highly-respected, true to the core actor, with few peers in his generation. (I watched On the Waterfront again recently, and I can say for certain that he was every bit as irreplaceable in that film as Brando.)
Jeffreydan,
Malden just happens to be one of my favorite American actors. The only other American actor who I might hold in higher esteem than Malden is Jimmy Stewart...another classy man who deserved much more lamentations in departure than jackson ever did.

I think Malden's best role was as Gen. Omar Bradley in "Patton". I don't think any other actor could have pulled off being just as memorable in that film as George C. Scott was. If you want to check out another Brando-Malden flick, there was also a "Streetcar Named Desire" also with Vivien Leigh...a true beauty who, in her prime, I'd imagine could still look seductive wearing a grain sack, but...unlike Farrah...was British born. :wink:
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby bruno » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:16 am

pervjohn,
Get some help before you ruin a kid's life. If that isn't enough to persuade you about just how badly you need therapy, then get some help so this "spiritual bride" won't have to bear seeing their father imprisoned because he blew your sick head off.
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Re: Even dead, Michael Jackson is still screwing up America

Unread postby bruno » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:22 am

Hey, pervjohn, is this the commune that you brag about constantly. It seemed to fit quite well given your recently stated views on child marriage.
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